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Dodging and it's uses in action games.

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1 Dodging and it's uses in action games. on Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:18 am

Gonna sleep now, let's focus on the more unique/unconventional dodging mechanics and obscure ones to start: samurai western and god hand.



Last edited by Gabriel Phelan Lucas on Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:17 am; edited 1 time in total

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2 Re: Dodging and it's uses in action games. on Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:46 am

Birdman


Moderator
I can't remember SW that well. It had a dodge roll which was pretty standard, a sort of spinning shift/sidestep that could dodge bullets and be used while moving foward to close the gap on enemies, and a bullet deflect with your sword. There were limitations to these but I've totally forgotten. I dont think any of them had i-frames either.

The majority of SW enemies have guns of some kind and you are usually surrounded. The bullet dodge let's you move into the line of fire and close distance. Actually I think the roll wasn't its own thing and was done from bullet dodge. Either way this system is quite unique. Usually in action games you're dodging defensively but in SW your going directly INTO the attack. While you can dodge through attacks to close distance in other action games, in SW is the actual design. It's what you do ALL the time.

Can we also include attacks or other types of movement that can be used to dodge?



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3 Re: Dodging and it's uses in action games. on Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:37 am

Sure. I don't know if this title was the best(can I edit titles?), I just want to talk about specifically dodging and their uses in action games so they often interplay between offence/defence/general movement options.

Yeh I picked SW because it looked super novel, I love that mechanic. It's a perfect way to mitigate all the ranged foes since it's moslty cowboys(Damn I need to get a copy).

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4 Re: Dodging and it's uses in action games. on Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:12 pm

Sure. I don't know if this title was the best(can I edit titles?), I just want to talk about specifically dodging and their uses in a
Press "edit" on your first post and you should be able to change the title.

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5 Re: Dodging and it's uses in action games. on Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:19 am

Birdman


Moderator
Come to think of it, not many action games have a dodge system quite like GH's with multiple hit zones.

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6 Re: Dodging and it's uses in action games. on Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:28 am

The only one I can think of is Yakuza Zero and Kiwami which have a weave too that can dodge high-hitting moves. But God Hand is pretty unique in it in terms of action titles. Games like Dead or Alive and Tekken have played with it too but not in terms of dodging. Granted I never really played any boxing or WWE of MMA games, do these types of games have these types of dodges?

I feel that unique forms of dodging will slowly make a comeback after the Souls-hype dies down. Right now it's all about this:

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7 Re: Dodging and it's uses in action games. on Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:30 am

Haha good stuff. I have a comment I'm working on about god hand but here is some (unfinished) fluff; Its combat and dodging emulates more up close, personal and intense human on human choreography of many martial arts films and their real world styles. God hands dodging works because of how close the camera is to gene like re4, as a opposed to most action games that have a a dodge move or two used for universally dodging most attacks since the camera is so pulled out, this is why enemies can be made more inhumanoid since your dodge is applicable against them. God hand is designed around humanoid opponents.

Combat sport games have mechanics that emulate dodging techniques like slipping, bobbing and weaving but they are more grounded and limited for sake of relalism than god hands hyperactive fighting styles(so sick they'll make you drool!)

Sorry gotta sleep now. I'm not good at long analysis writing I think I should use a bullet point/note type structure as this may breakdown my thoughts into clear readable parts.

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8 Re: Dodging and it's uses in action games. on Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:19 pm

Birdman


Moderator
The only other I can think of is Absolver's Windfall style which allows you to dodge high, low, and straight attacks with the tap of the right stick.

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9 Re: Dodging and it's uses in action games. on Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:33 am

God hand dodging is so unique it's often hard to describe, just think how hard that would be to make a game about, it's insane it even exits.

How is dodging in code of the samurai?

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10 Re: Dodging and it's uses in action games. on Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:33 am

Birdman


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I guess what makes it rare is what you said about GH's camera angle. Doesn't seem like a lot of actions games adopt that angle, probably due to how it limits view and movement.

In Code of the Samurai, did you see those white arrows appear? Simply pressing a direction makes you dodge. Those arrows pop up when an enemy attacks. You have to press a direction depending on the type of incoming attack. There are straight thrusts or vertical attacks that must be dodged to the side, and horizontal stuff you dodge backwards. Later enemies and bosses can launch combos and multiple enemies can attack in quick succession later on requiring continuous inputs.

These dodges also link into your own special combo strings but it's kinda weird and hard to explain.

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11 Re: Dodging and it's uses in action games. on Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:56 am

@birdman;Yeh code of the samurai dodges looked really cool, simple but stylish/efficient. So does it matter what direction you choose to avoid attacks?

Viewtiful joe has some novel high/low dodges.

How about nioh dodges?

PN03?

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12 Re: Dodging and it's uses in action games. on Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:02 am

Hajime no ippo games have boxing dodging mechanics since the games are based on the manga/anime which is about boxing.

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13 Re: Dodging and it's uses in action games. on Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:08 am

Birdman


Moderator
If you choose the wrong direction you get hit and can't use those flashy combo strings or special moves. For example, dodging a thrust by going backwards keeps you in its path and you get hit. Same with horizontal attacks covering you if you try to dodge to the side.

The arrow appears even offscreen and you can still dodge during your moves so it's possible to keep a long chain going in a group.

P.N 03 is awesome and has a few types of dodge.

*left right dodge for avoiding linear, straight line attacks, or dodging homing missiles at the last second. It's actually a two part dodge but I rarely use the second part. Useful if you are still in danger and want a little more space I guess.

*crouching - for sweeping horizontal fire or ducking behind cover or in trenches.

*crouch rolls - while crouching you can roll left, right, back and forward. Some enemies have attacks that are linear but hit low as well. I find this my least used dodge though.

*jumping - this is also used to dodge a few things. You can jump over horizontal fire and missile if you jump at the last second.

There aren't any i-frames either.

Nice example with VJ. I forgot about that.


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14 Re: Dodging and it's uses in action games. on Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:47 pm

Nero's table hopper is pretty neat dodge, it's like 3 consecutive sidesteps from GH to confuse and reach enemies quickly.

How about Knack 2 dodging?

Nioh has a few different dodges, dodge rolls, and a odd dodge twirl(a bit like samurai western) if you dodge to the side with the sword/spear(other weapons but I've not used them). Dual swords seem to have a sort of extended dodge upgrade, if you get hit at the end of a dodge will does a auto twirl with iframes and gives you a buff for damage I think that lasts for a while. All of these seem to have different distances, animation lengths and iframes.

You got backflips and sidesteps in Breakdown but the sideflip is useless but the back flip has some use in backing away from melee foes as your backward walking speed is super slow. You can also side flip after a slide attack but I've found no need but might be more practical hear as a quick exist after the slide(which counts as an attack).

It's not an action game but in MGS4 1 boss fight(Liquid Ocelot) introduces exclusive dodging moves such as side steps and slipping.

Oh and what about MGR offensive dodging and Sam's various dodges.

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15 Re: Dodging and it's uses in action games. on Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:57 pm

Nioh has quite the dodging system, basically you have one or two types of dodges per stance. Low has the twirl and side-step, mid has a step and a roll and high only has a far roll. 

One thing we haven't really touched upon is the LACK of dodges, something that titles like Resident Evil and Evil Within use, yet you can still avoid enemies. Baiting and punishing just by movement, quite an interesting element to those games.

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16 Re: Dodging and it's uses in action games. on Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:12 pm

Sure, but don't forget RE3 has a dodge move and RE4/5 have QTEs, 6 has full on manual dodge rolls, slides, slipping and Jake can backflip with his fists equipped.

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17 Re: Dodging and it's uses in action games. on Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:23 pm

Most of the dodges in RE4 are rare though, to avoid most ganados and salvadors, priests and more you need wits and possitioning, nothing else.

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18 Re: Dodging and it's uses in action games. on Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:42 pm

Birdman


Moderator
I think we're blurring the lines here. Are we talking actually dodges with a specific command input, or simply avoiding an attack?

In CL I can use i-frames on moves that arent actually dodges, to avoid an attack. In RE4 you can bain an enemy into attacking by moving towards them.

These strike me more as techniques. Very different from actual command dodges.

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19 Re: Dodging and it's uses in action games. on Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:18 am

Focus on dodge moves and other moves that can be used as dodges(like jumping in dmc or a avoid high attack move in GH) not just moves with Iframes to avoid damage. Iframes and their uses would be another topic.

You can use the pole vault in Nioh to avoid attacks, but I've been hit while at the highest point of the animation by a spear using boss.

A lack of dodges is still noteworthy, but not the focus of this topic.

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20 Re: Dodging and it's uses in action games. on Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:33 am

Birdman


Moderator
I feel like dodging as in a specific command for that purpose, not some movement that just happens to avoid attacks, should be its own topic, and i-frames or anything that just so happens to avoid attacks should be separate.

I guess I dont really mind, just less confusing and more uniform.

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21 Re: Dodging and it's uses in action games. on Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:08 am

I mostly brought it up for discussion, since we'd already fully covered dodges and it was something I noted while playing TEW2. I would dodge by pressing sprint at the last second and to the right on my stick - how is that any different from a dodge without i.frames?

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22 Re: Dodging and it's uses in action games. on Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:51 am

Birdman


Moderator
Ultimately it's not I guess. As I said it's not really a problem. I guess I just separate an actual dodge and movement techniques into separate discussion. Im a huge fan of using unconventional methods to do unintended stuff.

I do that in EW2 as well. It almost seems like he ducks away.

I've used the dash in God Hand the same way.

In Dororo, dashing is way more useful than the real dodges. Hyakkimaru dashes while leaning forward in quite a low position, but most importantly it's an instant burst of speed.

Better yet, you have a few options after dashing that are all really useful. You click down and hold the left stick to start dashing. It has limited duration, maybe around 3 seconds when you first get it, and 6-7 seconds once you get the necessary body part.

At any time, you can release the stick and he'll stop dead. No sliding to a halt or anything which makes it great for short burst to avoid stuff. If the enemy attack is prolonged, just keep dashing.

The dash has an attack extension by simply pressing the attack button at any time during the dash. He'll do a sliding kick followed by a stab. This slide is another quick burst which can be used at the end of the dash duration to extend it.

But you can use it any time and it recovers fast. I've avoided a lot of attacks with this

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23 Re: Dodging and it's uses in action games. on Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:03 pm

As long as the use of the move is to dodge then it's on topic, whether it's intentional on the games part or not.
But say using Iframes to avoid hits with re4 melee prompts is better placed in a iframes and their uses discussion, stuff like that is in just about all action games.

How's dodging in Mirrors Edge Catalyst?

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24 Re: Dodging and it's uses in action games. on Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:32 am

Birdman


Moderator
You mentioned The Nightmare Before Christmas in another topic. I've played that extensively and found some useful tech. The dodge is kinda unique too.

It's one of those 3x types, where the final dodge has a unique animation and lag. But the difference here is that you can infinitely chain the first two, so long as you use a different direction. The third only triggers if you go in the same direction as the second one. So you could go left>right>left>right infinitely. Or you could go up>left>down>left>down>right>up etc and zig-zag all over the place. Not particularly useful but it looks cool.

As far as I know, with other games with this 3x dodge mechanic, you can't chain them infinitely.

You know the move Pumpkin Bomb, available in Pumpkin King form? It has some sweet i-frames. So does the costume transformation, where Jack does that little twirl.

Also, any of those grapple points where Jack can either swing or launch upward, offer complete invincibility. Super useful on the final boss.

What other games use this 3x dodge mechanic? Where did it originate? Here's a list of games I know that have it.

Transformers Devastation
Bayonetta
Berserk (PS2)
Killer is Dead
Lollipop Chainsaw
Knack 2

Know of anymore? What's your opinion of this mechanic?


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25 Re: Dodging and it's uses in action games. on Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:34 am

No clue where it came from, I suppose it's taking a basic dodge move and letting you use it a few times but punish spamming with a cool down animation. I don't mind it but I'd rather not every action title have it, same goes for stamina bars.

I suppose Nero's table hopper is the dmc equivalent of that dodge, DmC angel dodges function similar to that also. DMC has a few different dodges, like dodge roll, trickter dashes and trick teleports, and jumping. Oh and Vergil in DMC4:SE has a neat table hopper type side step dodge while in DT.

GH has my favourite dodging of any game, just love how much complexity there is to dodging, and you have to dodge on a whim and use the right ones, super intense. I said a while back about noting GH dodging, I'll have to do that unless someone else doesn't mind.

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26 Re: Dodging and it's uses in action games. on Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:01 am

What about Arkham series dodges, you got dodge rolls, vaulting over enemies and that dodge sequence you can do against knife goons.

I haven't played Prince of Persia Warrior Within in ages but I recall that having something similar to Arkham with vaulting over and around enemies.

How about GoW dodges Roy? I always found the dodge to be odd, like its animation lasts long and covers too much distance for my liking, is that something they changed with various entries?

Urban Reign has a cool dodge move I think, like you hit a input as your about to be hit and you slip away from it, I think you can do this a few times in a row.

El Shaddai has different dodges depending on your weapon, so bare hand you have a basic dodge roll, the sword weapon you have a odd sort of dodge where you spin up into the air in one direction, the shield/fist weapon you have an advancing guard if I recall, and the ranged weapon has a dash that covers a lot of distance fast.

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27 Re: Dodging and it's uses in action games. on Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:08 am

Birdman


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Arkham
Yeah the dodge chages to the vault if done close to an enemy. Keeps the combo meter running. I don't think it has i-frames but the Batman games are one of those have that weird mechanic where enemies don't attack you during certain actions.

The knife dodge has a different command and can only be used when attacked with sharp weapons. Enemies won't attack while you're dodging. It has a takedown upgrade which instantly K.Os the enemy. I don't see any reason to use this unless you're going for the takedown.

El Shaddai
The Arc's (sword) dodge is a bit weird. It goes up on an angle and you can do your air attacks from it.

The Gale's (ranged) dodge is a very long range dash that can also be done in the air. You can strong dashes together with almost no time inbetween.

The Veil's (gauntlet/shield) dodge is a short dash in any direction while blocking. You can still be guard broken by stronger attacks though. Dodging and blocking simultaneously is not something you see often.




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28 Re: Dodging and it's uses in action games. on Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:47 am

Birdman


Moderator
Lollipop Chainsaw has all sorts of cool stuff.

The basic dodge is a 3x one, but the first and second have various extensions.

You have dropkick, leapfrog, bodyslam, flying kick, down attack, behind attack and one of the chainsaw special moves, a flying multi-stab are all done from dodging.

Leapfrog happens up close when you dodge toward a zombie. Juilet hops over the enemy by putting her hands on their shoulders and jumping over while doing splits in the air. These kicks knock down zombies and offer i-frames. Better yet, from leapfrog you can go into bodyslam or flying kicks or behind attack, all invincible.

Bodyslam and flying kicks knock down zombies too. Behind attack is a QTE where you cut a zombie in half. If low enough life this will kill them. If not it just hits them but you're still safe.

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29 Re: Dodging and it's uses in action games. on Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:50 am

The Arkham vault does have massive i.frames (nearly who animation). I've seen guns fire straight through me when in that animation, though there could be other magic at work. I have to say I always loved the Knife Dodge, especially against katana-wielders. Feels rewarding and just looks badass.

Warrior Within is unique in that there are no i.frames. If you time it wrong a vault over an enemy can end with you vaulting while losing half your life in the process. Most animations have full hyper-armor though.

About the triple dash, not sure where it came from. But the mechanic isn't solid imo. If the max dodge is three, the main tactic will be to dodge three times and find a way to cancel the final one like in Killer is Dead so you can dash infinitely. Either incorporate it in your gameplay (like Shinobi) or just give the dodge more recovery frames. It probably comes from them not wanting you to spam it, but then just do something else: this is not a way to balance it I feel.

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30 Re: Dodging and it's uses in action games. on Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:59 pm

Birdman


Moderator
The Arkham vault does have massive i.frames (nearly who animation). I've seen guns fire straight through me when in that animation, though there could be other magic at work.

That's good to know. I have a vague memory of being hurt by gunfire while doing it but maybe it was just mistimed. Usually though, they enemies don't seem to take any action while I'm doing it.

About the triple dash,
In LC, I only ever use the first two dodges. Nick Tickets cancel ANYTHING you're doing so if you do the third one and didn't get clear, you can activate one to save yourself from getting hit. You have to actually use the Nick move though. Can't just open the roulette to cancel.

It probably comes from them not wanting you to spam it, but then just do something else: this is not a way to balance it I feel.

It seems that in all the games I listed with a 3x dodge, there is something you can do after dodging. Some kind of mechanic tied to it. Like LC having all those extensions, Killer is Dead has that slow-mo attack, and TF has focus.

Games like GH and Shinobi can dodge pretty much infinitely, but don't have any special feature. Also, in TNBC: Oogie's Revenge, although it has a 3x dodge, there is nothing special you can do after it, which must be why the 1st and 2nd dodges can be chained infinitely.

But then you have games like DMC1, CL, Okami that only have a single dodge with no follow ups.

Just an idea anyway.


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