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The future of Nioh

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1 The future of Nioh on Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:07 am

Birdman


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I just responded in the NG thread but don't want to hijack it.

What do you guys think they will do with the final DLC? I quit during the second one due to being tired of the grinding and stats/gear being what was really deciding anything. I just can't play games that are heavy on this kind of stuff.

I love the gameplay though and I'm hoping the final DLC changes something but I seriously doubt that will be the case.

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2 Re: The future of Nioh on Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:59 am

I fucking hate stats in my action games it's gotten to the point that even platinum and team ninja are doing it. It objectively unbalances action game design; player skill. Nothing more, nothing less.

Stats are for those who want a sense of progression and 'depth' through counting arbitrary numerical values on arbitrary pieces of gear which is not action games.

In action games you don't level up stats; you buy moves/abilities/weapons. You don't grind for levels you master the core mechanics and you become a better player for your efforts.

In action games you deal consistent damage and it's up to the player to get as much out of their move set as possible, chaining combos is usually impressive in action games for that reason. You don't need to see arbitrary numbers flying around when you so much as poke a foe since you know what a move will do and how much damage it does anyway. Bosses and enemies tend to have life bars anyway,no need for tiny numerics for negligible extra damage(who has time to read exact damage values in actual combat, if you do then you likely are not playing or don't know how to play an action game).

Stats and such in action games only ever serve as concessions on the part of the action for the sake of the role playing. It's like opening up the stats in a games file it simply doesn't look like something that should be their, it shouldn't be available and necessary for the player to tinker with something that should have been done for you to allow for a focused game.



Last edited by Gabriel Phelan Lucas on Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:31 pm; edited 1 time in total

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3 Re: The future of Nioh on Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:14 am

This was my other comment from sigma thread:

EDIT:not done I don't think gotta sleep.

They should have designed a way to play nioh as just an action game, it's
not even balanced for basic moves like parry, a core move in ng. You shouldn't force players to grind just to make it balanced again, that's poor design. Stats don't add anything to what's possible in an action games space, in fact they detract and either make you over or overpowered and you are left with pointless tedium. Stats are just that, statistical values, something you shouldn't have to worry about and just focus on mastering the actual core mechanics, learning moves/combos and their properties against different foes, testing what can(not) be cancelled.

It really does look fun if lacking in challenging enemies. It has little to no replay value due to rpg nonsense, no action fan is staying for the stat spreadsheets unless it's frame data for moves like fighting games.

Automata, darksiders 2 and nioh are prime examples of why stats don't work for action games, it keeps happening and no one learns or stops it. Action rpg is a sub genre for a niche of a niche gamer, for those who like action and stats at once, so no one really wins.

Rpg is the most vague and useless term ever for games now. It just means stats/level/farming/grinding now, since that's what usually shows up and as soon as I see rpg rear it's ugly head I back up big time. Hey guys let's put rpg into fighting games!!
For real I genuinely am baffled at what so many are calling rpg, like Zelda and yakuza, both of which are action adventure at the very most for yakuza. its simply because they both have a hub world, quests and some amount of character growth and move list upgrades like any bloody action game ever.

Could we get a quote about how action game fans feel about stats in action games?, like from B..Dick benedict and seraphim17. Its ruining action games and I'd just like to see some critical support against the rpg plight over action games.



Last edited by Gabriel Phelan Lucas on Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:51 pm; edited 1 time in total

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4 Re: The future of Nioh on Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:13 pm

Farming and grinding are not terms that should be anywhere near action games. If you have to grind/farm in an action game then the devs clearly messed up somewhere. Who is directing nioh? Surely team ninja know better. I know trends trends, but Jesus they even had weapon durability then got read of it for good reason.

Any overall nioh issues?

So what are the issues regarding enemy types and general combat? Foes are too slow and easily countered.

Roy could you eloborate on this quote please? slow hard hitting enemies which rely on patterns to be defeated instead of wits.
(in the Nioh dlc review).

I take it means it lacks dynamism with its foes. Using trivial patterns to be read and disposed off. It's like they designed the whole game for another player character with too many ways to break the game. It sucks as we can easily see major gameplay fixes but they are not going to rework the whole game and remove all the stat bilge since dem kidz love dah bilge.

Is it grinding just excepted as a cultural thing? Who wants that in an action game? For the sake of some needless goal so one can feel a sense of progression via character growth. Stats and levels are like breaking into the games code, you shouldn't be able to see it.

I just hope team ninja recovers from their monumental identity crisis, its really only been platinum making action games to a high standard. Both still have time to make at least one more good game....maybe.....eh?

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5 Re: The future of Nioh on Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:29 pm

What I mean by that part is that, to beat those enemies, you need to learn their patterns and then it's just bait->punish. There is no on the fly thinking present like in Ninja Gaiden's Alma fights or Devil May Cry. It's just pure learn>punish. Very trial and error. 
The emphasis is also on slow and hard hitting, as there is only one enemy that is decently fast and he's pretty rare.

Nioh is great though don't get me wrong. As you can see from my articles I love the title and hold it in high regard, but it is just broken in terms of mechanics. The RPG elements are very important yet are given little thought and there are so many mechanics at play in the game that the system just collapses. 

Also yeah, RPG is really populair there. They'd slap a stat-system on anything and it would sell double (like Super Mario RPG). Really don't underestimate just how popular it is in the land of the rising sun. Pair that with the genre being dead and it's easy to see why they'd slap it onto. I'm surprised that Nier:A doesn't have a Stamina system (does it?).

Could we get a quote about how action game fans feel about stats in action games?, like from B..Dick benedict and seraphim17. Its ruining action games and I'd just like to see some critical support against the rpg plight over action games.
I'll note this down for the interviews with them if I ever get around to doing those.

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6 Re: The future of Nioh on Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:35 pm

No stamina but you have corpse runs like souls, die get one chance to pick up your body which has all your chips you might have equipped on that loud out of its gone. Not really trouble as I save smart and can just switch to easy for safe retrieval, really don't touch automata it's shite, you made the better choice with nioh since it actually has some solid stuff going on.

Yeh all the shit going on in nioh baffled me, like how many menus!?
Is there any way to circumvent much of the rpg upchuck? You mention white weapons around the mission level in your vids. It sucks I like the look of the combat but it has too much muck in the way to reliably enjoy it. Numbers give me a headache.

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7 Re: The future of Nioh on Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:22 am

Gabriel Phelan Lucas wrote:No stamina but you have corpse runs like souls, die get one chance to pick up your body which has all your chips you might have equipped on that loud out of its gone. Not really trouble as I save smart and can just switch to easy for safe retrieval, really don't touch automata it's shite, you made the better choice with nioh since it actually has some solid stuff going on.

Yeh all the shit going on in nioh baffled me, like how many menus!?
Is there any way to circumvent much of the rpg upchuck? You mention white weapons around the mission level in your vids. It sucks I like the look of the combat but it has too much muck in the way to reliably enjoy it. Numbers give me a headache.
The White Weapons means I'm really gimping myself as they are the lowest quality, did that to make me not get overpowered. But if you want to get to a high level, beat the game and all difficulties you're looking at at least 50+ hours of farming. Great. Also, mind your writing - you're spamming all over the place again. I don't want to see a double, triple or quadruple post: instead edit it.

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8 Re: The future of Nioh on Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:23 am

Also, mind your writing - you're spamming all over the place again
Will do. Can I delete my comments? I can't figure out how.

So you can't ng+ from normal to hard in nioh? That sucks with all the grinding, so much effort to make sure you aren't over or under powered.
Stats/gear are really their for a sense of progress, which really should be tertiary to the core gameplay and not take presidence over it. Like how you don't need to upgrade weapons in re4 or vanquish to get by since it's effectively optional.

I had a big comment but page froze so i gotta type it again. It was about rpg stuff so I was thinking of actually just making a topic about them since it keeps popping up.

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9 Re: The future of Nioh on Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:50 am

Birdman


Moderator
Even if you do upgrade in RE4, Vanquish and evrn larger, longer games like Okami, it's minimal. I dont have a problem with this, but I cant take these games that require endless hours of it. I guess TN is too scared to make an action game without all these RPG elements or should I say 'content'? *vomits*



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10 Re: The future of Nioh on Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:52 am

That the compromise that happens to action games that have rpg stuff. It's a matter of character growth taking precedence over player skill.

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