You are not connected. Please login or register

Hit confirm and stun check

Go down  Message [Page 1 of 1]

1 Hit confirm and stun check on Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:18 pm

Hit confirming is a pretty well known fighting games mechanic which let the player land a high damaging but unsafe combo in complete safety. In fact in fighting games the most damaging combos are unsafe in the sense that they can generally be punished by the opponent if he happens to block them. Hitconfirmable combos generally start with a couple of safe, low damaging moves which leave the player character at a safe frame advantage or disadvantage if blocked by the opponent, and finish with unsafe, more damaging moves. This structure gives time to the player for checking if the first, safe moves of the combo hit the target or are blocked or dodged by the opponenet, so he can judge if the unsafe, more damaging part of the combo can be land in safety. If the safe part of the combo gets blocked or dodged, the player should not input the final part of the combo.

Hitconfirming apply to NG2/NGS2 too and is an important mechanic for people who want to play these games on Master Ninja difficulty. While on NG2 this mechanic is only used in a few spots because of the frantic nature of its gameplay which encourages the use of safe, single hit moves, in NGS2 it can be applied in many instances for no UT, no ninpo restricted play. And since many bosses or medium sized enemies can activate hyper armor, the player should check if his combos hit the target and stun it as well.

Here I'll post a few examples:

NG2/NGS2 Genshin fights, Dragon Sword: most Genshin attacks and combos can be punished with X, X, Y, ->Y (NG2, Xbox360) or Square, Square, Triangle, ->Triangle (NGS2, PS3). Though, the last two moves of the combo are not always safe because Genshin can dodge them by jumping away, and then punish with a fast dash attack. So, you should input the first two moves only and then check what happens:

1 - Genshin jumps away or doesn't get stunned (he uses hyper armor): you have to shuriken cancel, then immediately block. This way, you can block his attacks, and generally you can also block his dash attack and get guard broken. Sometimes though the dash attack will inflict damage even after the guard break, so if you see his dash attack you should try to dodge it.

2 - Genshin gets hit and stunned: you can perform the last two attacks in your combo, inflicting a considerable amount of damage.

NG2 (Xbox360) werewolf: in this game you generally use Falcon Talons ->Y or DCTF 360Y and you don't have to hitconfirm anything.

NGS2 (PS3) werewolf, DCTF: you can punish with T, T, T, T. Input the first two attacks, then check what happens:

1 - werewolf dodges or doesn't get stunned (he uses hyper armor): just block and you are completely safe from him (not from his complanions though, better trying to keep them off camera). If he is trying to do his shoulder ram, you have to dodge and even jump away if necessary, that attack is unblockable and kills Ryu in one hit regardless of how much HP he has.

2 - werewolf gets hit and stunned: do the last two inputs of the combo.

There are many other instances in which you should hit confirming and stun checking. In NG2 Xbox360 you should do it mostly against bosses, because normal enemies get easily delimbed with fast moves, while in NGS2 you should do it also against most medium sized enemies since they are harder to delmb. Most hit confirms start with two X or Square inputs, so do the first two attacks and if the enemy doesn't get stunned just block or dodge if he is doing an unblockable attack.

View user profile

2 Re: Hit confirm and stun check on Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:29 pm

That's real good too, I'm no good at NG so this helps. The way NG plays troubles me so this means a lot.

View user profile

3 Re: Hit confirm and stun check on Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:40 pm

@Gabriel Phelan Lucas wrote:That's real good too, I'm no good at NG so this helps. The way NG plays troubles me so this means a lot.
This game troubles a lot of people. I think it would be a nightmare for people who suffer from anxiety. I want to repeat myself though, NG2 and NGS2 play very differently, and I think you are playing NG2, so in this game you should use this technique mostly against bosses (Genshin, Zedonius and Alexei come to mind, but maybe I'm forgetting others), while for the other enemies you should focus on using the moves with the highest delimb rate, or UT's or ninpo. Glad to be of any help for what I know of the games.

View user profile

4 Re: Hit confirm and stun check on Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:53 pm

I've played NGSigma, NG2 and NG3. I've played 2 the most(at least about 5 times, still confounds me) still no good, it's mostly due to how combo inputs work, how you tap a direction for a different move confuses me, as I often tap or hold the stick in the direction of an enemy to orient towards them, so that's the problem, as I'm supposed to rely on the soft lock and my positioning before attacking.

I do know how to fight regular enemies mostly, use delimb moves and spam guillotine, OT, some UT and flying swallow and other such moves for swift group takedowns.

I've never played it higher than normal I think, maybe I've played hard mode, can't remember the actual mode names right now.

View user profile

5 Re: Hit confirm and stun check on Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:02 pm

I've never played it higher than normal I think, maybe I've played hard mode

Then you shouldn't have particular difficulty, especially on normal (which is called "warrior" in the game). Hard mode (called "mentor") is already a much harder challenge though. I remember, one or two years ago, I was doing a challenge run on Mentor and it was a nightmare already on the second chapter.

View user profile

6 Re: Hit confirm and stun check on Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:09 pm

I don't have much trouble until the last few chapters, since they the elite IS ninjas and white ninja and demon ninja and such. Items are plentiful so that's nice. Bosses that give me trouble are Elizabet, Genshin 2-3-4 and I think Alexei among others I can't recall right now.

View user profile

7 Re: Hit confirm and stun check on Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:31 am

I think one thing to add to this is the odd/even-number dodge mechanic that Ninja Gaiden uses since NG2 which basically negates the need for hit-confirm most of the time. Basically, the way bosses work is that they will dodge every odd/even number (depending on which one he starts).

So lets say Genshin starts as an even-numbered dodger. This means that the first punish will connect, but the second will miss. The third punish will connect, and the fourth will miss - etc etc. The idea then is to for instance do a baited punish to force him to do his even-numbered dodge sooner. In Sigma2 and NG3(RE) you can do this by Izuna dropping Genshin as a punish, and as he recovers immediately attack with a heavy attack to force him tot dodge.

It's a bit hard to explain. I hope it was clear haha.

View user profile http://forum.stingermagazine.com

8 Re: Hit confirm and stun check on Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:14 am

Man I wish I had armour and iframes in The Real Life. Would change warfare forever!

View user profile

9 Re: Hit confirm and stun check on Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:38 am

Birdman


Moderator
I think one thing to add to this is the odd/even-number dodge mechanic that Ninja Gaiden uses since NG2 which basically negates the need for hit-confirm most of the time. Basically, the way bosses work is that they will dodge every odd/even number (depending on which one he starts).

Wow I never knew it was like that. Interesting system. It must be hard to come up with something fair when you're giving the enemies dodging capability.

What did they do before NG2?

View user profile

10 Re: Hit confirm and stun check on Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:24 am

@Royta/Raeng wrote:I think one thing to add to this is the odd/even-number dodge mechanic that Ninja Gaiden uses since NG2 which basically negates the need for hit-confirm most of the time. Basically, the way bosses work is that they will dodge every odd/even number (depending on which one he starts).

So lets say Genshin starts as an even-numbered dodger. This means that the first punish will connect, but the second will miss. The third punish will connect, and the fourth will miss - etc etc. The idea then is to for instance do a baited punish to force him to do his even-numbered dodge sooner. In Sigma2 and NG3(RE) you can do this by Izuna dropping Genshin as a punish, and as he recovers immediately attack with a heavy attack to force him tot dodge

Wow I never heard about it, that's really great to know. I understood what you said about Genshin strat for Sigma 2 (though I don't actually know how to land an Izuna against Genshin because I'm forcing myself to use Izuna the least possible). Though, I wonder if this odd/even number mechanic works the same for all bosses and for normal enemies. Because to me it doesn't seem to apply to werewolfs or vang elfs or certain bosses like Elizabeth or Zedonius. Also it's important to keep in mind that on most bosses punishing their grab will always stun them. I also talked to ModdedSkill, which is kinda an authority about RE, and he told me that, in RE, you have to stun check against Fiend Genshin in a certain instance. So I think it may vary from game to game and from enemy to enemy but I really don't know.

I'll take the opportunity to make a request to you, Royta, if you have time and you like to satisfy it. Ninja Gaiden is one of those games that only has a very small community of really dedicated players that have the proper knowledge of the game. The result is that there is no reliable resource about the true game mechanics. So, if you actually know some advanced stuff that can be useful for Sigma 2 and RE (the two games I'm really interested into atm) I'd be happy if you did some threads about. Or even about the other games, it would be an interesting read regardless. All NG games have really unique and obscure mechanics that I would be really happy to know in details. A couple of years ago I was posting a comment on ModdedSkill channel and he replied to me that RE story mode + ToV's on Ultimate Ninja is easy, he was playing it with a couple of restrictions: if someone sais something like that it surely means I'm missing A LOT of the mechanics LOL.

View user profile

11 Re: Hit confirm and stun check on Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:31 am

It varries from enemy to enemy, not game to game. Genshin is the same in terms of odd/even mechanic, but others work differently. I believe it is important to note that no game can be truly random, as the only thing random in the world is a dice - which cannot be simulated. So there's always a pattern to the 'chance'. Some are a bit more lazily coded than others though. For instance Ishtaros in NGB has a weird 'exploit' in her pattern that she cannot dodge attacks from behind, so using smart positioning allows for you to always hit her no matter what, while she was originally intended to just dodge randomly. Other games share this too, like Mistral not being able to block from behind in MGR:R.

The odd/even mechanic mostly works for Genshin, other enemies and bosses share a similar concept but are harder to figure out. Despite appearing 'random' Eli in NG(S)2 can be hit 100% of the time by abusing certain frames in her recovery where she cannot turn around yet. Same with Murai, who cannot do anything while recovering from his dodge-roll.

In terms of writing them down, that would be more akin to a guide I feel. But this does hook in to what I also originally wanted this site to be: a place of resource and information. For example this post: http://forum.stingermagazine.com/t2-ngs2-enemy-tactics
With the original Iberians realm gone my dream is to have a single topic here for each game with all the notes, the easter eggs, the tricks for every enemy with every weapon. Really compile all that data.

Maybe make a board called Tactics and make a topic there for each game we want to collect this data on? What do you say? Good idea?

In terms of other hidden small things I know of are, mostly across all games in the series:
- if you jump foward, most players roll and then jump again. It is better to just jump again by pressing direction + jump while landing. Must faster movement this way.
- you can change the direction of your jump after a dodge, a bit like the ZigZag in Vanquish, makes it much harder for foes to hit you.
- forward Light attack has, in most games (with the Dragon Sword) full i.frames. Really good.

What did they do before NG2?

NG2004 and NGB were a bit simpler, enemies would simply always auto dodge unless they had just ended an animation or were in one. Some couldn't dodge while being spawned. Bosses mostly have a recovery during a few attacks which allowed 100% guaranteed punishes or setups that baited them into being open 100% of the time, while others were coded (not sure if by design or by accident) to never be able to dodge attacks from behind them.

View user profile http://forum.stingermagazine.com

12 Re: Hit confirm and stun check on Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:29 am

Birdman


Moderator
Maybe make a board called Tactics and make a topic there for each game we want to collect this data on? What do you say? Good idea?

I strongly approve of such sections. I have no issue with lots of sections and clicking isn't hard.

View user profile

13 Re: Hit confirm and stun check on Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:53 am

I'll do some work in the background and see if I can't make at least one topic beforehand and migrate it there so that there's a nice template for people to use as example.

View user profile http://forum.stingermagazine.com

14 Re: Hit confirm and stun check on Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:42 am

In terms of other hidden small things I know of are, mostly across all games in the series:
- if you jump foward, most players roll and then jump again. It is better to just jump again by pressing direction + jump while landing. Must faster movement this way.
- you can change the direction of your jump after a dodge, a bit like the ZigZag in Vanquish, makes it much harder for foes to hit you.
- forward Light attack has, in most games (with the Dragon Sword) full i.frames. Really good

I was aware of the first two things and of the third to a certain extent, though I'd like to know more about the strange i-frame mechanics in NG. I don't want to go off topic though, so I'll open a new one when I can and I'll ask you a question or two if you like. I would also like to talk about my playthrough but I already did a topic on the other forum so I think I'll do just one post here after I finish it. Hopefully I'll also get a damn capture card so I can show you some gameplay Smile

View user profile

15 Re: Hit confirm and stun check on Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:57 am

Ninja Gaiden has a pretty unique i.frame system in that you don't get full i.frames in all types of animations. Some attacks, like the Claw Counter in NG2, just reduce your hurtbox by a big margin while also recoding the enemies to be less accurate - allowing the move to be used without it being an i.frame festival. This last version of i.frames is pretty prevalent in the series and genre at large, mostly used in aerial attacks like the flying swallow which, while being done, results in enemies being a lot less aggressive.

View user profile http://forum.stingermagazine.com

16 Re: Hit confirm and stun check on Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:06 pm

Birdman


Moderator
I'm really liking the tactics forum layout. No chit chat, just pure tech.

View user profile

17 Re: Hit confirm and stun check on Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:15 pm

Cheers! Yeah here's hoping it can grow! Again, if any of you have any requests or wishes to do something similar, go at it. I'm currently hoping to get my hands on a PDF of the Vanquish Future Press Guide so I can write down the damage values etc.

Made a slight addition to the rule-set btw.

View user profile http://forum.stingermagazine.com

Sponsored content


Back to top  Message [Page 1 of 1]

Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum