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The stigma attached to GoW.

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1 The stigma attached to GoW. on Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:01 pm

Birdman


Moderator
I still see this whenever this series is mentioned.

Here's a recent example.
https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/691087-playstation-4/76108685

Highlights of stupid.
GoW combat does suck, or mediocre at best

God of War is decent, but can't touch games like DMC(something the director even said).

its actually not. it has zero depth

god of war didnt become popular because of it's combat, it became popular because of the set pieces and well-done QTE boss battles.

Both GoW and Arkham games have s***ty combat.

Its combat does suck.. Push buttons to win? Almost every combination of buttons is a combo so you always look like your doing something amazing but its just random buttons.

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2 Re: The stigma attached to GoW. on Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:21 am

It gets that but it still sold big moneys. The series has comparable tech to DMC and I'd argue it surpasses it in some aspects, namely enemy competency.

No one seems to bring up how barebones souls are, yet those get endless praise.

EDIT: Read some more, damn that topic got toxic immediately, fucken east vs west weeb battles commenceth. I like this one:

Iokua posted...
Yeah, western developers aren't known for their melee combat mechanics... except for series like God of War, and the Arkham series, and many, many other series that use melee combat mechanics.


While they look flashy, the combat itself hardly has any depth in those games making things get boring quick.

Not only are u supposed to have flashy combat that compliments the way enemies fight, u are suppose to create enemies/bosses that can compliment the combat just as much. Such games like that should give u limitless options of moves to use so u can create your own style when u tackle on an enemy. But no, all we get is a few moves to use.

Sometimes I wished more developers have the mindset of making combat with layers and layers of combat that actually work with each other. Unfortunately, only the minority of gamers really care about s*** like that in the west. I hope sucker punch doesn't deliver a overrated game like most AAA studios nowadays.


Gotta have infinite combo sim depth like its DMC4 again. Bet they haven't played something as simple as Shinobi or dem souls games. This is making me bitter.


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3 Re: The stigma attached to GoW. on Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:33 am

Birdman


Moderator
There's definitely issues on both sides of the fence, and both contribute to destroying the genre.

I don't get these types. I find vets worse in a lot of cases, most rcently regarding Transformers Devastation. Go ask players like Saur about TF:D, Bayo, and DMC3 and you'll find he praises it just as highly.

Yet there's this weird group that can't accept different combat mechanics and that they can be just as good. DMC4 isn't the best action action game. It's not better than Shinobi, Bayo, TFD, or even GoW. It's different. They're all different and excellent.

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4 Re: The stigma attached to GoW. on Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:25 am

This is a good topic, I've been looking for a way to start it myself but this is the best way I feel. Good job!

Let me start by saying: I was one of them. I started with Vanquish and then moved on to Sigma 2 of the Ninja Gaiden series. I jumped into God of War III and absolutely hated it. It was more casual, dodging was crap. Blocking? Really? No HP bars? Why? Too 'gamey' for you? No real setups blabla. I had all the excuses you mentioned and more.

Where this comes from, I feel, is the 'more moves = complexity' mentality. God of War has very few moves and its enemies can generally all be juggled. It has a more visual tone in terms of set pieces, instead of timed dodges you use a block. Pair that with the fact that it's an action game even non-action gamers like, and you've got a recipe for hate. Which is unjustified as beating God of War 1 and 2 on the highest setting is intensely difficult.
If anything I'd rate God of War 2 above Devil May Cry 4 for being a far more polished and finished game. Its enemies are better design, stronger bosses, good switching mechanic. The only thing holding it back is a style meter and that's it.

There was one video, I can't find it right now, where a player notes while playing Shinobi "it's nice that this exists, but there's no reason to play it. I already played Devil May Cry 3, so why play this game"? And it's that mentality that's also holding it all back.

But yeah, it is also a name thing. The title has gotten the reputation and has always had two fanbases (the hardcore, and the casual) - something games like Ninja Gaiden never had.

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5 Re: The stigma attached to GoW. on Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:36 am

Birdman


Moderator
I heard all the casual stuff back then, and I will admit to a degree it put me off, but more that I had lots of other stuff to play and I guess I focused more on other series. I honestly don't like how Kratos looks either.

I was like full time Chaos Legion, Onimusha and DMC back then. GoW got pushed further back into the shadows until it was totally forgotten (but that will soon change). Same with the NG series. Never got into it but that was more because I only had PS2 and back then we couldn't afford a new system.

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6 Re: The stigma attached to GoW. on Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:21 am

@Roy; Was that your GoW3 lp on your old channel? Man Royta really [wasa filthy casual.

If you don't like Kratos' design, the series has tons of new costumes per entry, some really goofy ones like spud of war(chains of olypmus the 1st psp entry), cow of war and scuba of war costumes.

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7 Re: The stigma attached to GoW. on Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:13 am

Yeah that one, a bit embarressing haha. I really had no clue on how to handle that entire thing. Tried to play it the 'Gaiden way' which didn't work at all.

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8 Re: The stigma attached to GoW. on Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:28 pm

I'll throw my 2 cents here too.

I played GoW1&2 on the highest difficulty setting without using magic. There are some hardcore gamers that like playing those games on heavy restrictions, and say that GoW games have depth. I respect the opinions of everyone, but I actually disagree. All you do in GoW to survive under restriction, is to stay away from the enemies, input your combo in the opposite direction, then striking the last, strong blow to the crowd. And do that over and over and over, because on restrictions like PAIN you don't have upgrades so you have low damage output, can't use the throws, and have to be careful since you can't open chests to heal. If you allow throws, it's even easier because as you might know the throws deal full damage and don't scale with difficulty or weapons upgrades (or something like that, just let's say throws are strong). The only fights that are really deep and challenging in GoW1&2 on restrictions are clones in GoW1 and translators in GoW2, the rest of the games is kinda grindy, it feels difficult at first but is really accessible.

Again, I respect all opinions of other people :) But I have to say I totally disagree the game has similar tech to DMC3 or DMC4, where those games have tech for the player to learn for more than a long lifetime, while GoW have just a very few tricks, like I think it only has roll canceling?

So, again, my very personal opinion: GoW is actually a more casual approach to difficult action game developement and it's not worth if you are into games like DMC, Platinum, Team Ninja or even Souls.

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9 Re: The stigma attached to GoW. on Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:07 am

Birdman


Moderator
I can't comment on GoW's gameplay compared to others much because I've never played it. I've only watched videos and heard what good players have to say.

I don't think a game's difficulty should influence whether or not it's worth playing though. Okami is a great example of an easy game with fantastic gameplay. Even with no upgrades or item use it's still not even close to as hard as other action games (unless you take on devil gate trials like this) but the gameplay is so fun that it doesn't bother me that much.

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10 Re: The stigma attached to GoW. on Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:57 am

Doesn't matter how much tech a game has if it doesn't have adequate foes to use it on, DMC4 in particular is lacking in the enemy department, many of them having easy move sets and low hp.

GoW 1-2 have some challenging foes to say the least, namely satry and wraiths. GoW2 also has a ton of enemies and various enemy encounters that combine just about all the different enemy combinations together.

I had more trouble than dmc4 just playing GoW1 on normal. GoW has plenty of legitimate challenge, very much comparable to actions best. I'm sure if I played it on very hard(or PAIN) I'd have far more trouble than any souls game, I've recently beaten BB and only a handful of enemies and bosses posed a threat to me. That and difficulty is subjective, mostly a matter of ones skill and expertise on a given game of a given genre.

Also you can just spam UT to win most battles in NGB and 2 and ignore the rest of your arsenal since it's OP. Every game in this category have exploits to no end, high side kick spam anyone?

Compared to souls, GoW has tons of depth, souls have always been mechanically baron, not a jab just plain fact. Souls combat is purely about bait n' punish and positioning. It would be brain dead if it didn't require those things to win. The series where you go R1-dodge/block-R1-dodge/block-R1....

GoW you have combos that serve different purposes, launchers, juggles and throws to use. GoW isn't the most complex system around, doesn't need to be, but to say it's not worth playing is untrue, it has plenty of difficulty and a fair amount of tech for what is supposed to be for the casual crowd. GoW series has something to add to the genre. GoW2 is one of the most refined games I've played.

Same goes for Knack 2, which has more than a few things in common with GoW(chiefly casual games with decent amount of tech).

Saying it's completely shallow is untrue, there are plenty of little nuances to learn about your move set, areas and enemies to master, again souls have little of this. So if your arguing that GoW has very few tricks(that's ignoring all the uses for grabs, launching, juggling and knocking foes out of bounds and block cancels), then souls have actually fewer tricks to none.

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11 Re: The stigma attached to GoW. on Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:16 am

First off, welcome Dark!

I think the biggest difficulty in discussions like this is that the term "depth" and "complexity" are thrown around a lot, without actually establishing what that is and also acknowlodging how it can differ per person. When it comes down to combat complexity it can't rival DMC3 for sure, on that we can all agree. But it wrecks DMC4 which has pretty bad combat, only standing on its two legs thanks to its unrivaled combo-mechanics which are supported by bland and boring enemies with few attacks and low agression and ones that are, obviously, not even built around Dante but around Nero's moveset. DMC4 is great to play in a training room with Dante or to watch combo videos of. But when's the last time you actually played the adventure?

To say it isn't worth it, would really downplay the whole genre. A game like Shinobi is difficult, but only has one attack and one ranged attack - so is that game useless and pointless? I don't think so, it just uses different mechanics. It's a different bland and flavor.
Ninja Gaiden, for all its love, can be called a shallow game as well using your logic. Sure there's complexity to be found if you challenge yourself (just like PAIN does for GoW) but outside that, it's Chain-UT the game - it even promotes it by giving UTs the highest Karma reward in the game and is the only way to No-Hurt Ninja Gaiden 2. For all its shortcomings, Ninja Gaiden 3 and Razor's Edge are - in a sense - the most complex since they don't have that fallback. Yet why then are they worse than NGB and NG2, which are more simpleminded?

Because a game is MORE than just its combat complexity and combo mechanics. A game is about enemies, their design, the levels, the adventure, the pacing, the puzzles (if there are any), how and when new mechanics are introduced, the variation in combat by weapons - all that add to a full new game.

One last thing I do wish to add, but I couldn't really put it anywhere, is 'gameplay style'. Devil May Cry's style is, well, stylish gameplay - showing off. Ninja Gaiden Black is defensive, looking for an opening. Ninja Gaiden 2 is aggression. God of War is efficiency, finding the best way to deal with an enemy as quickly and safely as possible. I can imagine that might bore some, but it is very accesible (which is why it was the sales juggernaught that it was, outselling nearly the whole Ninja Gaiden franchise with just one entry).

This is also good reading material: http://www.stingermagazine.com/2017/11/god-of-war-1-perfect-video-game.html

Again, not hating, just providing my perspective into the mix. I firmly believe every (action) game has a place and can be enjoyed as long as you're open enough. Sure most won't be the quality of Devil May Cry 3, but if we held every game to that standard we might as well quit now, since the chances of that game being bested any time soon are slim.

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12 Re: The stigma attached to GoW. on Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:38 am

@Dark_Blood_NG wrote: So, again, my very personal opinion: GoW is actually a more casual approach to difficult action game developement and it's not worth if you are into games like DMC, Platinum, Team Ninja or even Souls.

It's just that you say this that concerns me, to outright state the whole GoW series is not worth playing, as if it has nothing of value to offer to the genre or games as a medium. I scarcely wonder what you'd think about no end of games listed on this site?

That's certainly not the mentality this forum breeds, I'd hope. No hard feelings, I just don't like the suggestion that it's not worth playing if you like these sorts of games(or games at all), a tad snobbish to me.

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13 Re: The stigma attached to GoW. on Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:18 am

Birdman


Moderator
Ok let's tone it down a bit because I don't like where this is going. Let's discuss GoW, not argue over it.

Here's my view sons, and I'll have to slightly disagree with you on DMC3 Roy. Not saying that the game isn't high quality (it's on of my list of top games of all time), and definitely better than some.

I consider a whole list of titles on par with it easily. It isn't better, and it isn't worse. It's just another on a list of greats that offers me something.

It's not better than CL, Shinobi, Onimusha, GH or Okami. There's more but this is just an example. Is it better in some areas? Sure. But each of these are better in areas too.

I can do all sorts of awesome things in all of these. In DMC3, I can't summon legions and all the mechanics surrounding those like in CL, dash from enemy to enemy and cut them all down at once like Shinobi, use a magical paintbrush to do all kinds of shit in Okami, Onimusha's side stepping and counter mechanics, OZ's enemy volleyball mechanics (you need to try this game!) and of course the brutal GH with all the mechanics it brings to the table.

To this day I don't think I've met a single person with this view (or at least not 100%). This doesn't mean I don't have a standard though. There are definitely action games that I would rate of lower quality for sure.

Back to the topic of GoW, to Roy and Gabriel, feel free to list all available GoW tech you know of, or link to sources. This topic is about the stigma towards GoW, so let's see some stuff to combat that.

To Dark Blood NG, don't feel like this is any sort of attack on you. This isn't Gamefaqs or wherever. You've got an opinion on GoW, and you've put it forward respectfully. You may know all the tech available and still feel the same about the series. If so, fine. We'll leave it at that.


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14 Re: The stigma attached to GoW. on Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:25 am

Ok let's tone it down a bit because I don't like where this is going. Let's discuss GoW, not argue over it.
Funny, I just came here to edit that into my own post haha. Everyone is entitled to their opinion here, that's what the forum was made for: to discuss the genre in detail and with passion - because that's so hard to do in other places on the web (since they generally end up a pissing contest).

I feel that as a game, a whole experience, DMC3, NGB, GoW2 and VJ1 stand at the top because they are the complete package. They have good combat systems, well design levels with good art direction, exploration elements, ranking systems and more - the games feel finished, something the genre tends to lack (that feeling of finished, that feeling of polish).

That what you noted about some games doing things that others can't was my point exactly though, every game has a reason to exist in that sense alone since some games have that one mechanic or that one 'vision' that others don't.  Shinobi's rush style since your health is burning is unique, can't get that elsewhere (really want to replay that game...gah...so much to play, hate that haha). And Chaos Legion has the legions etc. Knack 2 has the shrinking. And my all time favorite MGR:R has the cutting mechanic for instance.

OZ's enemy volleyball mechanics (you need to try this game!)

STOP! STOP! Hahahahaha. I really can't take any more haha.

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15 Re: The stigma attached to GoW. on Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:11 am

Birdman


Moderator
STOP! STOP! Hahahahaha. I really can't take any more haha.

I scream this to myself regularly lol.

Regarding GoW series is there consolidated info on all tech anywhere? or is it scattered over forums and youtube comments?

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16 Re: The stigma attached to GoW. on Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:19 am

@Birdman wrote:STOP! STOP! Hahahahaha. I really can't take any more haha.

I scream this to myself regularly lol.

Regarding GoW series is there consolidated info on all tech anywhere? or is it scattered over forums and youtube comments?

Honestly, it would be best if we could get either SBK or Mr.Starkiller here. They are miles more knowledgable than me when it comes to the series. I'll link this topic to them, see if they'd wish to chime in.

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17 Re: The stigma attached to GoW. on Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:40 am

@Birdman wrote:

I consider a whole list of titles on par with it easily. It isn't better, and it isn't worse. It's just another on a list of greats that offers me something.

It's not better than CL, Shinobi, Onimusha, GH or Okami. There's more but this is just an example. Is it better in some areas? Sure. But each of these are better in areas too.

To this day I don't think I've met a single person with this view (or at least not 100%).

Same here gramps. I've mentioned before elsewhere but I don't have a favourite. Not better just different and all that jazz.

@Darkblood; Like I said no hard feelings, just saying it isn't worth playing is pretty harsh. I'd highly recommend GoW trilogy for newcomers since it's so accessible without being too abstruse with its mechanics like DMC or God Hand and the like. Many a title doesn't do a good job communicating its mechanics well to the player, GoW averts this supremely well.

On topic: On the matter of tech, we might as well copy-paste what BigZee had to say in Roy's GoW vids, he'd know and it'd save us the trouble haha. I'm not that versed in GoW only having beaten 1-2-3 recently.

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18 Re: The stigma attached to GoW. on Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:55 am

On topic: On the matter of tech, we might as well copy-paste what BigZee had to say in Roy's GoW vids, he'd know and it'd save us the trouble haha. I'm not that versed in GoW only having beaten 1-2-3 recently.
Bro, that's like 20 volumes haha.

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19 Re: The stigma attached to GoW. on Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:16 pm

Well someone's gotta collect it eventually, I know he hasn't got it all compiled. Say what you want but the old fart knows his stuff, at least as far as GoW is concerned.

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20 Re: The stigma attached to GoW. on Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:42 pm

Oh I agree, and the guy is easily the most well versed player when it comes to the whole series - but no way in hell am I collecting all that data. If you want to volunteer, pretty sure the community would be eternally grateful.

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21 Re: The stigma attached to GoW. on Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:13 am

I'm sorry if my post was misunderstood, Gabriel. I'm not a snob person, in fact I don't really like snob people. Though, I just wanted to talk about a game I played and give my opinion, which unfortunately is negative. Of course, I respect yours, but I can't pretend I agree otherwise I would be lying and mocking you.

A game like Shinobi is difficult, but only has one attack and one ranged attack - so is that game useless and pointless?
Well, I didn't say that :)
I just said the game has less tech than DMC because here (or in another thread) has been said that GoW has same level of tech as DMC, which is not true, but again it wasn't meant as a mean of disrespecting people, just a way to state a fact.

Depth in a game can be its difficulty and level of challenge, or its tech. So DMC has a lot of tech, either DMC3 or DMC4. DMC4 has bad enemies, but its depth is in the combat system and in the tech. NG has complex enemy patterns. UT's are meant to be used in karma runs which have in fact a lot of complexity, but the game has been clearly designed to be played also no UT's, in fact it's possible to do it in NGB, and to a certain extent in NG2. Though, judging the flaws of NG2 would be a bit too harsh, because we know the game has been rushed. No UT is also great in Sigma 2 and it's almost mandatory in RE (which is also its charm).

Having played GoW, I can tell that it doesn't have the tech of DMC or the enemy complexity of NG. In my opinion even souls has more depth and it's a more interesting game since it can be played with a vast array of weapons and is based on spacing and i-frames, while GoW it's all about staying out of range of the enemies. The throw make the game less interesting, in fact venterans don't use them, and without throws the juggles are useless. GoW it's interesting only if you do clones and translators without magic. In that case, the game is harder than Ninja Gaiden on restrictions! And definitedly the combat acquires depth. Only a handful of people has been able to get good at those challenges, I've heard it took months for Taz to do the clones.

Again, especially to Gabriel, I want to point out that I'm not trying to be snob, just to give an opinion having played these games. If you guys enjoy GoW then it's good :)

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22 Re: The stigma attached to GoW. on Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:59 am

Birdman


Moderator
Having played GoW, I can tell that it doesn't have the tech of DMC or the enemy complexity of NG. In my opinion even souls has more depth and it's a more interesting game since it can be played with a vast array of weapons and is based on spacing and i-frames, while GoW it's all about staying out of range of the enemies.

Sure, GoW might not have as much depth (again, I don't know this) as DMC3/4, but that's all you've really said. This game has a bigger list than that game.

Gabriel, now's your chance to prove GoW's worth. Collect all the tech floating around and compile it for us.

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23 Re: The stigma attached to GoW. on Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:43 am

@Birdman wrote:Gabriel, now's your chance to prove GoW's worth. Collect all the tech floating around and compile it for us.

Wait what is this a tag super or something!?
Hold on...LEND ME YOUR ENERGY!!!*holds hands up heroically*.

For real I'm in no place to being speaking in depth about GoW tech and such. Really wanna see what BigVee has to say, even though he's said it already elsewhere.

Roy what can you say for at least GoW1?

But even so, just saying aforemetnioned games have more tech than GoW doesn't mean much. My issue is your saying GoW has pretty much nothing, which isn't actually true at all. And more so you said it has no worth playing, unless you meant just for you then I still have an issue, its more than worth playing. Comparisons are fine but I'd rather appreciate it as its own entity, instead of discrediting it next to others that it *still* has a worthy place standing with. That's how the community bothered to collect the tech in the first place, because they love it for being GoW not DMC or NG or other such initialisms.

Honestly I don't care for these comparisons now, I've grown weary quickly, like I said appreciate it for what it is instead of what it's not(other more 'deep', games and such). Theirs always going to be less complex games and GoW is generally one of them, it being held so high is due to its accessibility, overall great combat/enemy design/level design and a faithful community willing to discuss the particulars in depth. All that has worth.

That and I'm not an authority on GoW so I'd be in bad conscience discussing tech further as I don't know haha.

Also your not really helping the stigma by utterly discrediting it, could you give any merit to the series?

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24 Re: The stigma attached to GoW. on Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:03 am

could you give any merit to the series?
Well, I actually can't give it since I found the game boring after two playthroughs Smile
I think this is one of those games that impress for the set pieces or for the spectacular violence. It also has greek mythology which can give the player a sense of epicness, fighting all those things you've read in books, interacting with the characters of the greek epics. So, it really catches you in the first playthroughs. Though, after them, you learn how to play and the game is over. In other games, like DMC, when you learn how to play the game you actually start loving it even more and you want to play it more times and try different things. In GoW there is not much that you can try aside from increase the difficulty in an artificial way. All the rest, the characters, the set pieces, the epic music, the violent qte, all becomes old.

Of course this is how I see the game, it's a commercial game with low replay value, but of course people can appreciate it for what it is and have fun with it, and maybe replay it many times. Bick Benedict replayed GoW many times and he would rpobably kill me for the things I'm stating in this topic :D
Though I'm still a big fan of Bick, he's awesome, my best respect to him and his love for action games. And of course, my best respect towards the gentlemen of this board Smile

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25 Re: The stigma attached to GoW. on Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:22 am

Birdman


Moderator
Also your not really helping the stigma by utterly discrediting it, could you give any merit to the series?

That's why the 'volumes' of info referred to in this topic needs to be recorded and shown. Get to it son. This is one of the reasons I made the topic, to be able to post GoW tech without gamefaqs/reddit or whatever other psychos.

In other games, like DMC, when you learn how to play the game you actually start loving it even more and you want to play it more times and try different things.

Kinda the case with any game though. I've been playing Chaos Legion for 13 years.






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26 Re: The stigma attached to GoW. on Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:34 pm

Wait what is this a tag super or something!? 
Hold on...LEND ME YOUR ENERGY!!!*holds hands up heroically*.



Joking aside!
Replay value really is personal, I never tire of DMC3 or NGB, but DMC4 (even the legendary SE) is a game I can't stomach to sit through again and again. God of War strangly is a game I enjoy replaying, the combat is very visually satisfying and there's always at least something new to find in terms of items, interactions or other loops.

In terms of advanced stuff, there's a few. First I'd want to note that God of War is a game built around efficiency as I noted in the article as well. The difference between a good player and a great player in that game isn't high combos or fancy tricks, but more not giving enemies a chance to do anything. Every enemy has a few loops available to do on them, and the trick is to find the correct one for the correct situation while getting as many of the needed orbs as possible (be it red, green or blue).

Aside from that there are a few advance knacktics:


  • roll-canceling: basically you cancel a roll using an attack which you cancel with a roll, you don't see it visually but it is akin to NG's advanced jumping shenanigans, allows for way faster movement than expected by the designers and much better defensive mobility.
  • aerial magic: lot of magic was designed around using on the ground, but used in the air they have a lot less recovery. A good player never uses magic on the ground.
  • Artemis I.frames: basically, switching to the Blade of Artemis gives you full invincibility allowing you to avoid otherwise deadly attacks that would kill you outright or required you to dodge, making staying on the offensive against bosses like PAIN+ Ares a lot easier.
  • Chest/ water Abuse: more a trick, but the AI has big issues with chests and water. You can lure them over to one and have them get stuck so you can deal with them one on one instead of against a whole group, same goes with water. Jumping in water removes all aggro allowing for some cool hit and run tactics.
  • magic canceling: pulling out the head of medusa or the lightning spell allows for canceling attacks much faster than intended (I believe they knew about Guard Canceling), very handy to keep up insane pressure.
  • Guard canceling: what it implies, not as useful as magic-canceling though I feel (but safer).
  • slamdunk: how I call it, but enemies take high amounts of damage if thrown at another ally of theirs. So if you grab an enemy (or use the cinematic finisher) and their body hits another enemy, they take a lot of damage too. So good players abuse this.
  • area: a minor thing, but extremely absent in games like DMC and Ninja Gaiden; you can ring-out a lot of enemies. There is fall damage for foes and you still get orbs for it. The game outright promotes it at one point. Some arenas have invisible walls but if you juggle an enemy and use OH (Osiris Harpoon (the ground-to-air grab)) on them you can redirect the OH to pull them OVER the invisible wall and to their death.
  • redirect OH: as noted above, you can redirect a ground-to-air grab a full 180 degrees. Input is tight but this way you can slam enemies into each other easily. Most players don't know this and you'll just see them OH a guy into the ground, while a good player is constantly smacking them onto each-other.


This is top of my head stuff. There is, no doubt, more.

EDIT: I wish Bick would join, he's a good guy. Didn't know you knew him too Dark Blood! Great guy ^^

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27 Re: The stigma attached to GoW. on Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:48 pm

@Dark_Blood_NG wrote:
could you give any merit to the series?
Well, I actually can't give it since I found the game boring after two playthroughs :-)

That's the response I wanted to prompt. This is mostly a matter of you simply not liking GoW more than anything I'd say. You find it boring, end off. Doesn't seem you want to look any further into matters of tech.

All this talk of depth is actually irrelevant to your real understanding, because it ultimately comes down to whether you even like it or not, in this case you simply don't. Your argument is actually mostly subjective, most of your comments can be thrown at every action game ever, especially the ones you've mentioned.

Out of interest, what entries have you played? how many times? what handicaps? and what difficulties?

@Dark_Blood_NG wrote:
Though, after them, you learn how to play and the game is over. In other games, like DMC, when you learn how to play the game you actually start loving it even more and you want to play it more times and try different things.

You can play different, pick a different weapon, do a PAIN run and such. GoW 3 has 4 different weapons to use, all of them being a remix of sorts of the standard blades of chaos move set, some specializing in different fields, GoW 1 has blade of artemis, GoW2 has the hammer and spear weapons, use those instead. ofcourse,You just don't care to.You just don't want to try anything different in what GoW allows, the game is just over for you, fair enough. And when you say 'you' here, i think you mean i, as your speaking for yourself here i presume.

I should think you know better than to dismiss a game purely by its simplicity, despite souls still being some of the most basic as you can get, yet you like them quite a lot sir. Despite there is nothing to the series combat once you've mastered each enemy and bosses move set, just pick a weapon and time just one of its attacks well and that's it, nothing else new to learn. Along with little to no hit states to manipulate or various move purposes beyond just raw damage. Whether you like it or not is purely preference, this is basic fact, don't be a hypocrite. You could say the same for any game about optimization over variety and style. This applies to NG series also, especially goes for Shinobi and Chaos Legion, once you learn the game its over. Or so goes the saying "learn the game" as opposed to "be the game"(is that right Roy?).

This extends to Shmups also, lets say Radient Silvergun, for how complex the weapon system seems its purely a matter of using the optimal weapon on a given enemy and leveling up the right weapons, just as Ikaruga is a matter of switching to the optimal color polarity. Along with memorising and avoiding enemy patterns, which are ultimately predictable as patterns tend to be, especially in shmups.

In Souls, picking a different weapon doesn't equal depth, that's breadth, as your interactions with those weapons and enemies isn't any more complex. In all of souls your moves tend to do one thing: hit the thing, or hit it harder. Souls in the ways of move purposes and few hit states to compliment that, no real launchers, sweeps, juggles, approaching moves etc to speak of. GoW also has plenty of move-purposes, hit states and setups, that's why you have launchers, juggles and knockdown moves to knock enemies out of bounds for instance. Souls have actually nothing by comparison, just by how they are designed. GoW has and always will beat souls in the tech department. Souls don't even have things like cancels outside of DS2, so that cant even be compared. Note that much of GoW tech is unique to the series and can't be directly compared to others, like grabs, which outside of Nero lacks direct parallels. GoW 3 even adds new types of grabs like the shoulder charge and a move to pull kratos towards and to hurt/stun/knockdown foes. Even in early combat encounters GoW has more going on than Souls, the game demands you learn more than bait n punish tactics.

You've been weighed, measured and found wanting sir, the facts are against you. Your preference if you like it or not, that's no issue by me, but to deny its quality, tech and certainly suggesting to others to not play it if they are fans of the genre or not is a blatant disservice to the series, genre and its fans. Just don't use the excuse of the series not being as deep as others in the genre as one to dismiss it, otherwise you might as well stop playing souls right now. Just because its not as complex as others doesn't discredit its quality in any way. It being so accessible is only worth giving credit for, given how complex these games can get with little in the ways of tutorials, GoW makes sense even on a first casual outing, especially when compared to say God Hand. That game tells you little to nothing and expects you to have an advanced grasp by mister gold/silver boss*just brutal and ruthless*. GoW being targeted primarily at the masses doesn't detract from how much the series has to offer to the genre. Same goes Knack 2, even more so what is supposed to be a casual baby game(doubt you'll like this either).

The very notion that BigZee has a seemingly eldritch amounts of wisdom for the series speaks volumes about its nuance, i highly doubt he's bluffing. I learnt plenty from Roy's GoW1 runs and BigZee's analysis in the comments, supposed tech or not. I say all this and i'm not that much of a fan of the series, i don't like GoW1 that much even if i respect it immensely, 2 is bar far the best but i really like 3 for some reason, i think its the art, weapons and grab option additions/changes.

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28 Re: The stigma attached to GoW. on Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:39 pm

You just don't care to.You just don't want to try anything different in what GoW allows, the game is just over for you, fair enough. And when you say 'you' here, i think you mean i, as your speaking for yourself here i presume.

Gabe, I know you mean well but keep it polite. We're not here to bash each other or make assumptions. Dark Blood is a nice chap, he just has a different opinion than you. Don't worry, we're not going to suddenly all out hate on God of War or 'lesser' games in the genre, that's not the point here. Just a healthy discussion :)

That said, you make good points and I have to admit I cracked a smile during the "become the game" part.

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29 Re: The stigma attached to GoW. on Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:19 pm

Royta, there is no problem, really, I don't think he's been unpolite, I respect his opinions about the game.

I've watched Bick videos for years. He plays many things, even things I'm not directly interested into, though I still like watching him just for chilling out, he does nice commentaries. Also he has very peculiar opinions about some games, and I find interesting to see how perception may vary from person to person, so his voice commentary is kinda interesting.

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30 Re: The stigma attached to GoW. on Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:36 am

Birdman


Moderator
Uh oh someone's set Gabriel off! HAHAHA!

One thing to take note of regarding our position Dark Blood, is we generally believe that the attitude you're espousing is a detriment to the action genre.

Of course, I see you aren't out to do anything wrong, but yeah, I've seen many the fantastic game overlooked and outright abused along with their players due to stuff like DMC series.

The same thing happened with Transformers Devastation. Utterly destroyed by trolls and action genre vets alike. Yet look at what Suar's opinion. Bayonetta expert. DMC3 expert. He calls TF an evolution of Bayo's combat system and praises it as highly that or DMC series. Talk to Morninglord 22 about it for similar results. There's a massive discrepancy here, and one who disagrees pretty much has no choice but to call the other a liar or a moron who doesn't know how to play any of the above.

Thankfully you haven't done this and have put forward your opinion respectfully. I think you got Gabriel with the comment about it not being worth playing in a world with Platinum and the others you listed, but also that this logic extends to tons of other games as well which is why Roy mentioned Shinobi.




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31 Re: The stigma attached to GoW. on Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:09 am

I wasn't trying to be rude, just frank.

My understanding of your understanding leads me to believe your argument is faulty and lacking. I think you not liking GoW is the true crux of your argument of which all your criticisms trickle down from. Depth is irrelevant here as you simply don't like what GoW offers, going so far as to state it has no merit and is not worth playing against the likes of DMC, NG and even Souls. If the series did have tech(it does) you'd still dismiss it thereby rendering your argument moot, if it didn't(still does) well that's obvious you'd say the same. Someone who admits they are bored by the 2nd playthrough(of an unspecified entry) isn't likely going to look into matters of tech nor make use of it, because they just don't like it.

Most of your argument has been espousing how DMC, NG and Souls have more depth and thus more value in your eyes. I find these comparisons ultimately pointless and demeaning to all mentioned titles, as it's always how one is better than the other, not really just a matter of depth at all. A games depth will always be relative to others, fixating on how others have more is a disservice to the game being compared. If depth was your chief concern then you wouldn't be playing Souls, no matter how much you claim it has more depth than GoW as a defence. Just because a game isn't as deep as another doesn't detract from its quality and what it can offer.

For example: Sin & Punishment 1-2 are very basic shooter/action hybrids that are very well made and offer something, same goes for Furi and Shinobi also being fairly basic but unique and well designed overall. Just because a game is fairly basic doesn't mean it is devoid of tech, games above have little tricks to there mechanics, areas and enemies, however small are still available to make use of.

I think there's little left to despute here; the series has tech, this is fact, this is known, end of. Whether it's more or less than other titles listed is irrelevant, where you think it's lacking compared to others is opinion. It's GoW, it should be examined in its own right same as any other title. You've gone so far as to deny the series had tech at all, this is a blatant denial of fact and a farce, as far as I'm concerned your argument doesn't stand even an inch above the ground. Yeah "like just roll cancels", I think not sir.

That and you've yet to respond in kind, namely about your experience with the series is key info.

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32 Re: The stigma attached to GoW. on Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:37 pm

you've yet to respond in kind, namely about your experience with the series is key info
I played GoW1&2, I unlocked the hardest difficulty setting for both and played through it. Then I started another playthrough in GoW1 on the hardest difficulty, avoiding to use magic because it made the game too easy. At some point I think I stopped using grabs too for the same reason. At a certain point the game became really repetitive and I just stopped playing, I thought it wasn't worth anymore. The only interesting part in that game for me was the clones battle, and I'm sure if I would have played it I could have enjoyed it on those restrictions. Though, I wouldn't play a whole game just to enjoy one fight. I started the same run on GoW2 because I remember I was enjoying it more than GoW1, but I ended up bored as well. This is my experience with the series, I hope this will answer your question, I'm sorry to repeat that I didn't like the game but you asked me about my experience, so I wanted to justify why I stopped playing.

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33 Re: The stigma attached to GoW. on Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:44 pm

I want to make a quick note, to both Gabriel and Dark Blood to clarify something. I've been a bit vague about the purpose of this site, as it is still taking shape and I sometimes have to see where it goes. I believe an argument can only exist if there are two parties represented (those for, those against) - but I do think that's not what this site should be about. 

I really want the culture of this site to go towards looking into each and every game and seeing their worth. And I was not clear on that in the introduction to Dark Blood when he joined this site, so please Gabriel - let the discussion go. You have your take, Dark Blood has his. You, I and Bird were here since the start, and it evolved into that (which we still break a bit when we discuss games like God of War 2018 and Hellblade). So next time something like this happens, be it with another member or whatever, new or old, try to not go nuts (I appreciate your passion, really, I do) but just remind the new member of the culture here or let me know and I will do so.

I have taken steps, the introduction PM that new members get will also include a short message on the culture here. I hope this will smooth things out, and that the forum can be more and more a safe-haven for great players and fans of the genre :) Cheers.

NOW BACK ON TOPIC:
How should be go about collecting BigVee's information? I know at least two to four places where his data and notes are stored. They are usually per fight, though there is also general data and exploits (like using Medusa's gaze to overload the polygon count on screen to despawn all enemies).

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34 Re: The stigma attached to GoW. on Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:14 pm

Birdman


Moderator
I should have consulted you before making this topics I think. It really does invite an argument. What I wanted was to analyze the stigma against GoW and come up with a counter.

How should be go about collecting BigVee's information?
Copy and paste to a notepad or something first. Worry about how to arrange it later.

Maybe arrange by tech, then fights in order that they happen in-game?

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35 Re: The stigma attached to GoW. on Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:53 am

Thank you for making things clear DarkBlood, I don't mean anything against you I just found your argument to be tainted by your dislike, leading to unfair judgements. Glad to have a new member and I'm looking forward to future discussions, whether we be for or against.

I've nothing left to add here for now and I rest my argument. I do hope it provided some substance against stigma of the series.

As for tech, make another topic and dump what you can find first, then organise it by general tech and terminology pertaining to each entry. List general exploits also.

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36 Re: The stigma attached to GoW. on Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:59 am

No problem, Gabriel. I think I shouldn't post about things I dislike, but only about things I like, because otherwise people could actually misundertand me for just polemizing or flaming. I'm happy to be part of this forum and I hope it can grow without any problem or conflict, and become big.

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37 Re: The stigma attached to GoW. on Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:24 am

Dislike is fine, if you have a complaint about a game and criticisms that's fine, we've all voiced as such in the past.

I admit I know what you mean about GoW1 feeling kinda grindy haha, something about that one makes me tired after a while, I think it's the pacing, lots of puzzles, platforming and backtracking with only about 3 bosses. But that's me and I'm not discrediting the games quality, it's just not my favourite.

I really like GoW3 the most for some reason, I think it's due to the changes to the combat, weapons(each having unique dodge animations which I like more than the regular dodges),aesthetic, length being short compared to 1-2 and the bosses(love Poseidon and Hades bosses, just epic).

I never had a problem with you disliking GoW, it's that you said the series has no tech at all and discredited its value relative to others and the genre. It not having value to you is personal and I won't tell you otherwise, but it has its place within the genre and gaming as a medium. Maybe if your open to giving 3 a try seeing as you've not played it. When we gather the tech for the series you can see in detail yourself even if you don't like it.

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38 Re: The stigma attached to GoW. on Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:43 am

Birdman


Moderator
Disliking is fine. I dislike some action games for whatever reasons, but I'm not going to trash them. I still acknowledge what they can do.

Take Nioh for instance. Fantastic combat system, yet I won't touch it again (well, maybe not) due to too many RPG elements and grinding. Same goes for Nier Automata.

This topic did sort of invite opposing views. As for other topics, it makes zero sense to enter one just to say how much you dislike/hate, or think something is trash or whatever. That's a Gamefaqs/internet psycho thing that I'll probably never understand. It's a main reason why gaming boards are always so toxic.

Imagine right now, if Gamefaqs users all at once, completely stopped posting their hate for games they dislike for whatever reason, and just left people alone to like what they like. It would actually be a good site.

I don't have a huge issue with disputing a claim. If you see someone posting that Onimusha is the best game ever, and much better than the no-depth button masher DMC3 for example, feel free to contest that.

(which we still break a bit when we discuss games like God of War 2018 and Hellblade)
This happens, and we'll make our jokes but it's more to do with why we think games like these are taking the genre is a terrible direction.

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39 Re: The stigma attached to GoW. on Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:30 am

I'll probably have a dead moment this week, and collect all his comments from my videos and put them in a post here. Then we can go tech-treasure hunting haha.

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40 Re: The stigma attached to GoW. on Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:57 pm

Birdman


Moderator
God Of War was always bad.

If anything this change might give it somewhat decent gameplay


Taken from this topic.
https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/691087-playstation-4/76195803?page=5

This is why we need to get all the tech together in one place so we can link to it whenever we come across ignorant comments.

Probably won't mean much to people who are ruled by their egos and are terrified of the possibility of being wrong, just like when I post to Saurian's TFD content and others which resulted in abuse more often than not. Not because they'd actually verified the content, but rather the idea that there might be more to the game after they've established their garbage view is just too scary and they start to flip like a fish out of water.

It will be great for new players or those who don't hate GoW for no reason.

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41 Re: The stigma attached to GoW. on Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:52 am

Having a discussion with those people won't help, even if you have this giant bible with technology on God of War for the simple reason: it's style of gameplay is vastly different. You won't be doing jump-cancels or bizarre style-switching stuff, instead the best God of War players play extremely efficient killing foes with quick infinite strings and ranged 'spam' (I just quickly call it that). One can argue easily though that Ninja Gaiden operates the same way, but without a clear identifier of what equals 'depth' we'll never get to a good conclusion. I do feel that in the larger terms of the genre, it will be remembered fondly though especially with the butchering of GoW2018.

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42 Re: The stigma attached to GoW. on Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:45 pm

Birdman


Moderator
It may not help with these know nothing trolls in the end, but it's still good to have something to post to for two reasons.

First, others who arent assholes, will see the link and probably check out the info. I've posted all the TFD stuff and have had a few people, amid a sea of trolls, look into it.

Secondly, it infuriates said trolls. The more the try to discredit, the better it is.

The depth thing as you know, pisses me off to no end. There are definitely action games with less than others but there's a large handful that are equally good. DMC ain't the best and neither is NG. They're different and equal. Same goes for Bayo, W101, Chaos Legion, Lollipop Chainsaw, GH, TFD the list goes on.

Right now it looks like the general view is that the game with the most moves has the most depth. We deserve Kamiya's Dad May Cry if we believe this.

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43 Re: The stigma attached to GoW. on Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:18 am

Right now it looks like the general view is that the game with the most moves has the most depth. We deserve Kamiya's Dad May Cry if we believe this.
Which is why the next big article on Stinger (after the anniversary article and another short one) will be about what defines combat depth and why so many think DMC has is (as it does, just not for the reasons people think it does). 

I'm currently really sick though, so give it a while.

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